>> Koa Beck: A LOT OF THOSE AVENUES IN LANGUAGE THAT ARE USED HAVE WITHIN WHAT I QUANTIFY AS WHITE FEMINISM HAS, FRANKLY, JUST NOT BEEN AVAILABLE TO BLACK WOMEN SPECIFICALLY.

>> Bonnie: HOW DO YOU DEFINE WHITE FEMINISM VERSUS FEMINISM?

>> Koa Beck: I DEFINE WHITE FEMINISM IN THE BOOK AS AN IDEOLOGY TOWARDS ACHIEVING GENDER EQUALITY.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

TODAY, WE HAVE WITH US AUTHOR KOA BECK WHO HAS, BEFORE WRITING "WHITE FEMINISM", HER NEW BOOK, HAS WORKED AS A JOURNALIST AT MARIE CLAIRE, JEZEBEL, AND OTHER WELL-KNOWN SITES AND WRITTEN ABOUT GENDER TOPICS FOR MANY YEARS.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW, KOA.

>> Koa Beck: THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME!

>>Bonnie: OH, YOU'RE MORE THAN WELCOME.

LET'S GET RIGHT TO IT, ESPECIALLY IN A TIME WHERE RACISM AND SEXISM ARE BOTH SO MUCH IN THE NEWS.

YOUR TAKE IN "WHITE FEMINISM" IS THAT BLACK WOMEN -- AND YOU ARE OF AFRICAN DESCENT, CORRECT, RIGHT?

>> Koa Beck: CORRECT.

>> Bonnie: BLACK WOMEN HAVE BEEN SYSTEMATICALLY, NOT JUST LEFT OUT OF, BUT PUSHED OUT OF THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT.

TELL ME HOW THAT WORKS WITHOUT GOING WAY INTO, AS YOU DO IN THE BOOK, THE HISTORY FROM LIKE BEFORE THE PASSAGE OF THE 19TH AMENDMENT.

TELL ME HOW THAT WORKS TODAY.

>> Koa Beck: WELL, IN TERMS OF MAINSTREAM FEMINISM AND THE RHETORIC WE'VE USED IN THIS COUNTRY TO DESCRIBE WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND ALSO JUST ASSENTING TO GENDER EQUALITY, YOU KNOW, WHETHER THAT IS MAKING A SPECIFIC WAGE OR HAVING FINANCIAL AUTONOMY ARE BEING ABLE TO SUPPORT YOUR FAMILY IN A CERTAIN CAPACITY OR, YOU KNOW, BE PRESENT AND INVOLVED, YOU KNOW, PARENT, A LOT OF THOSE AVENUES AND LANGUAGE THAT ARE USED WITHIN WHAT I QUANTIFY AS WHITE FEMINISM HAVE, FRANKLY, JUST NOT BEEN AVAILABLE TO BLACK WOMEN SPECIFICALLY.

BUT A LOT OF OTHER WOMEN OF COLOR, LATINOS, NATIVE WOMEN, AS WELL AS A NUMBER OF CLEAR GROUPS AS WELL.

AND THE WAY THAT THAT IDEOLOGY OFTEN FALLS APART, WHEN DIMENSION I EXPLORE IN MY BOOK IS TO LABOR.

A LOT OF THE FOUNDATIONAL LABOR IN THIS COUNTRY SPECIFICALLY REGARDING DOMESTIC WORK AND CARE, THAT WORK HAS FACILITATED THE GROWING NUMBER OF WOMEN, SAY, IN WHITE-COLLAR JOBS OR LEADERSHIP POSITIONS.

BUT THE WOMEN WHO ARE RECRUITED TO TAKE OVER THAT LABOR ARE NOT A PART OF THAT RHETORIC.> Bonnie: SO TALK ABOUT, PLEASE, IF YOU WOULD, YOUR EXPERIENCE AS A FAIR SKINNED AFRICAN-AMERICAN, HOW THAT FORM TO YOU ARE AND HOW THAT -- BECAUSE YOU ARE SO FAIR SKINNED, HOW THAT FORMED YOUR VIEW OF BEING AFRICAN-AMERICAN AND HOW SOCIETY LOOKED AT YOU VERY DIFFERENTLY.

>> Koa Beck: WELL, ABOUT SEVEN YEARS AGO, I EXPLORE THIS IN THE BOOK, I WROTE A PERSONAL ESSAY ABOUT PASSING, AND PASSING NOT JUST AS A PERSON OF COLOR BUT ALSO AS A QUEER PERSON TOO AND HOW IN A LOT OF WHITE COLOR, YOU KNOW, PROFESSIONAL SETTINGS, DISPATCH IN WHICH, YOU KNOW, I AM INTERVIEWING FOR A LEADERSHIP ROLE OR THE VERY SPECIFIC PUBLIC FACING ROLE OR EVEN JUST A SENIOR ROLE, I READ AS A WHITE STRAIGHT PERSON.

AND BEING HYPERAWARE OF THAT IN MIND NEGOTIATIONS WITH POWER, VERY POWERFUL PEOPLE AND EITHER HAVING TO AT SOME POINT, LIKE, OUT MYSELF AS BOTH OF THESE IDENTITIES OR, ON THE OTHER HAND, WHICH I EXPLORE IN THE BOOK AS WELL, PEOPLE BEING VERY COMFORTABLE SAYING, YOU KNOW, RACIST, DEROGATORY THINGS IN FRONT OF ME BECAUSE THEY ASSUME THAT I AM ALSO WHITE OR I'M ALSO STREET.

AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT I HAVE EXPLORED A LOT EARLIER IN MY CAREER, BUT MOSTLY WHAT INCENTIVIZE ME TO WRITE THAT PIECE IS THAT, AS A YOUNG PERSON, WHEN I WENT LOOKING FOR EXPERIENCES OF PASSING, MUCH OF WHAT I FOUND SEEMED TO SUGGEST THAT THIS USED TO HAPPEN, THEREFORE IMPLYING THAT IT DOESN'T HAPPEN ANYMORE.

AND SO, EITHER INTENTIONALLY WANTED TO EXTEND THAT ARCHIVE OF PASSING BY TALKING ABOUT MY OWN EXPERIENCES, SPECIFICALLY AFTER, YOU KNOW, THE FEDERAL RECOGNITION OF SAME-SEX MARRIAGE, AFTER -- YOU KNOW, WELL AFTER JIM CROW LAWS.

TO SHOW THAT THIS HAPPENS NOW, SPECIFICALLY IN TERMS OF OPPORTUNITIES AND WHO GETS THEM, AND ALSO WHAT POWER HOLDERS ARE THINKING.

>> Bonnie: NOW, TELL ME, WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT SOCIETY THAT YOU INTERNALLY IDENTIFY AS AFRICAN-AMERICAN AND, YET, PEOPLE SEE YOU, YOU LOOK VERY WHITE.

SO I'M ASSUMING A FAIRLY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF YOUR GENES ARE AFRICAN-AMERICAN AND YET YOU ARE STILL, IN YOUR OWN MIND, ANYWAY, DEEMED TO BE AFRICAN-AMERICAN.

IN OTHER WORDS, WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST CHOOSE GROWING UP, SINCE YOU LOOKED WHITE, TO BE WHITE AND, I MEAN, TO ACT AS WHITE, WHATEVER THAT MEANS IN SOCIETY?

DO YOU HAVE AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN PARENT WHO -- >> Koa Beck: I DO, I DO.

I EXPLORE THIS IN THE BOOK AS WELL AND THAT ONE OF THE RESPONSES I GOT FROM THAT ESSAY, YOU KNOW, SEVEN YEARS AGO WAS, WELL, IF YOU ARE, YOU KNOW, NAVIGATING THE SPACES AND YOU ARE BENEFITING FROM THEM, WHY DON'T YOU JUST ESSENTIALLY ASCEND TO WHITENESS, LIKE, WHY NOT BE WHITE?

THE ISSUE I HAVE WITH THAT IS THAT THAT DOESN'T REALLY CHALLENGE POWERPOINT IT DOESN'T REALLY CHANGE THE PARAMETERS BY WHICH WE ARE THINKING ABOUT OPPORTUNITY AND ALSO JUST A BASIC STANDARD OF LIVING IF WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT ME AND TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, OTHER PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY.

PASSING, TO ME, IS INDICATIVE OF A VERY SPECIFIC THRESHOLD BY WHICH WE THINK ABOUT OTHERS.

AND IT STILL ASPIRES TO WHITENESS, WHICH I DON'T REALLY THINK IS A REINTERPRETATION OF POWER, AND I DON'T REALLY THINK IT IS PROGRESS.

>> Bonnie: I ASKED A MORE SPECIFIC QUESTION, I BELIEVE, JUST SLIGHTLY.

WHY IS IT THAT SOCIETY FOR SOMEONE LIKE YOU, WHO SEEMS SO WHITE, YOU KNOW, APPARENTLY, WHEN YOU'RE -- WHEN YOU SEE EACH OTHER FACE-TO-FACE, IS STILL CONSIDERED AFRICAN-AMERICAN?

>> Koa Beck: I THINK THAT QTHAT UESTION IS MORE NUANCED IN THAT WHEN I AM IN THE PRESENCE OF, SAY, YOU KNOW, LIKE VERY WHITE POWER HOLDERS, YES, THEY ABSOLUTELY SEE ME AS WHITE.

BUT WHEN I'M IN THE COMPANY OF PEOPLE OF COLOR, YOU KNOW, WHETHER THEY ARE MY FRIENDS ARE PEOPLE I MEET, THEY OFTEN COME UP TO ME AND ASK WHICH ONE OF YOUR PARENTS IS BLACK.

SO I THINK IT JUST SPEAKS TO FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCES IN SEEING.

>> Bonnie: DOES IT ALSO SAY THAT -- TO YOU THAT BEING WHITE IN TODAY'S SOCIETY IS STILL A MUCH MORE COVETED BRAND THAN BEING BLACK?

>> Koa Beck: OH, VERY MUCH SO.

I MEAN, ONE OF THE ANECDOTES I GET INTO THE BOOK IS THAT, YOU KNOW, NO POLICE OFFICER HAS EVER ASKED ME WHY I'M LOITERING.

I MEAN, I AM NOT READ IN THAT WAY AGAIN BY POWER HOLDERS AND I AM VERY AWARE OF THAT EVEN WHEN I WAS MUCH YOUNGER.

>> Bonnie: DO YOU THINK RESUME-WISE, DO YOU THINK BECAUSE COMPANIES OVER THE LAST 10, 20, EVEN -- I GOT OUT OF JOURNALISM IN '75, OUT OF JOURNALISM SCHOOL AT COLUMBIA AT '75, AND I WAS TOLD SEVERAL TIMES IF YOU ARE AFRICAN-AMERICAN, WE WOULD HIRE YOU IN A MINUTE, BUT WE HAVE TO DIVERSIFY.

BUT DO YOU THINK THAT STILL, IN SOME WAYS, IS A BENEFIT?

LIKE, AS COLLEGES CHOOSE TO ACCEPT AND WHO TO REJECT, AND THEY KNOW THAT THEY ARE TOO WHITE AND THEY HAVE TO TAKE MORE PEOPLE OF COLOR, IS THAT -- HAS IT BECOME IN ANY WAY -- AND I KNOW YOU DON'T EXPLORE THIS IN THE BOOK, BUT I'M JUST ASKING YOU, HAS IT BECOME A BENEFIT IN A WAY?

>> Koa Beck: I THINK THAT QUOTE/UNQUOTE DIVERSITY IS A TERM SHOULD BE CONSIDERED KIND OF A RED FLAG IN A LOT OF THESE ARGUMENTS.

ONE OF THE AVENUES I DO GET INTO IN THE BOOK IS THAT I HAVE BEEN IN A LOT OF SITUATIONS WHERE COMPANIES ARE MAKING WHAT THEY OPENLY REFERRED TO AS A, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, DIVERSITY HIGHER, WHICH IS A VERY ONE-DIMENSIONAL -- I ARGUE IT'S A FLAWED WAY TO VIEW CANDIDATES, SPECIFICALLY IN THAT THEY ARE, YOU KNOW, IN REVIEWING, SAY, YOU KNOW, DEPARTMENT THAT'S ENTIRELY WHITE, THEY REALIZE THAT THAT PRESENTS AN OPTICAL, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, PROBLEM.

BUT THE WAY TO FIX THAT IS TO SEEK OUT ONE PERSON TO BASICALLY REBRAND THE VISUAL OF THE COMPANY.

SO THERE IS NO REINTERPRETATION OF, SAY, LIKE, THE VALUES ARE METRICS THAT HAVE MADE YOUR DEPARTMENT SOLIDLY WHITE OR LIKE, WHY YOU ARE ONLY CHOOSING WHITE PEOPLE TO FILL THOSE ROLES.

>> Bonnie: WHEN YOU WERE PITCHING STORIES AT YOUR VARIOUS OUTLETS WHERE YOU WORK AND VERY PRESTIGIOUS, VERY WIDELY READ OUTLETS LIKE JEZEBEL, LIKE MARY CLAIRE AND YOU COMING FROM NOT JUST BEING A WOMAN OF COLOR, BUT ALSO BEING LGBTQII, AS HE PUT IT.

I'VE HEARD BEFORE LGBTQ, BUT I DID NOT GET THE IA.

IT WAS INTERESTING TO SEE EVEN REPRESENTING EVEN MORE GROUPS WHO HAVE BEEN LEFT OUT OF THE CONVERSATION.

WHEN YOU LEAVE THESE GROUPS OUT OF THE CONVERSATION OF BEING PUBLISHED IN MAJOR SO-CALLED FEMINIST MEDIA, WHAT DOES THAT DO?

WHAT IS THE SOCIETAL EFFECT THERE?

>> Koa Beck: YOU KNOW, ANYONE WHO HAS BEEN IN THE NEWSROOM PITCHING IS A VERY BIG PART OF, YOU KNOW, THE ENVIRONMENT AND YOU PITCH STORIES ALL THE TIME THAT ARE NOT ACCEPTED, EVEN IF YOU'RE VERY GOOD.

THAT'S JUST KIND OF THE NATURE OF WHAT IT IS AND ALSO HOW STORIES ARE, YOU KNOW, SELECTED AND CURATED, DEPENDS A LOT ON THE, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, MOMENT AND THE NEWS CYCLE AND A LOT OF OTHER FACTORS THAT ARE IMPORTANT WHEN SELECTING, YOU KNOW, A COVERAGE FOR EITHER A DAY OR A WEEK OR WHAT HAVE YOU.

BUT WHAT I ANALYZED IN THE BOOK IS THAT, AS A VERY YOUNG PERSON, I STARTED TO RECOGNIZE A SPECIFIC PATTERN IN TERMS OF MY IDEAS THAT WERE CHOSEN AND NOT CHOSEN.

SO NOT SO MUCH THE MOMENT OR, YOU KNOW, WHAT I WOULD DEEM TO BE LIKE OUTSIDE FACTORS, BUT FOR WOMEN'S BRANDS SPECIFICALLY TO BE CONSTANTLY EXPORTING GOODS VERY SPECIFIC EXPERIENCE, I THINK IT HOMOGENIZE IS THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING A WOMAN OR A NON-BINARY PERSON IN THIS COUNTRY BY CONSTANTLY EXPORTING REALITY THAT IS REALLY ONLY PERTINENT TO A SPECIFIC GROUP OF PEOPLE.

AND AS I GET INTO -- IN THE BOOK, IT REINFORCES THIS IDEA THAT, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, FEMINIST ISSUES OR FEMINIST CONCERNS ARE, YOU KNOW, REALLY I NARROWED SET OF ISSUES AS OPPOSED TO WHAT I GET INTO THE BOOK, WHICH I THINK HAS MORE TO DO WITH BASIC STANDARDS OF LIVING, AFFORDABLE HOUSING, FOOD SECURITY, YOU KNOW, POLICE REFORM, LIKE THE SORTS OF THINGS, WHEREAS FOR A NUMBER OF OUTLETS I HAVE WORKED, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, FEMINIST ISSUES ARE, YOU KNOW, BIRTH CONTROL ACCESS AND THEN, YOU KNOW, FINDING A LONG-TERM PARTNER WHO IS PROBABLY CIS-MALE AND ALSO WANTS TO CHANGE DIAPERS WITH YOU AND THEN, LIKE, THE BIGGEST FINANCIAL CONCERNS ARE, YOU KNOW, STUDENT LOAN DEBT, WHICH IS A CRIPPLING ISSUE IN THIS COUNTRY.

BUT IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WOMEN IN THIS COUNTRY WHO DO NOT GO TO COLLEGE, WHO, YOU KNOW, HAVE TO SUPPORT THEMSELVES THROUGH AN ARRAY OF OTHER JOBS, IT DISTORTS, YOU KNOW, WHAT A, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, FEMINIST ISSUE IS.

>> Bonnie: BUT THERE ARE, AS WE KNOW, THERE ARE MORE WHITE WOMEN ON AID TO FAMILIES WITH DEPENDENT CHILDREN THE CURRENT DAY, WHAT USED TO BE CALLED WELFARE, THEN -- EVEN THOUGH AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND OTHER MINORITY GROUPS ARE REPRESENTED IN HIGHER PORTIONS AMONG WELFARE RECIPIENT, THAN BEGAN THEIR ACTUAL NUMBERS IN THE POPULATION WOULD CALL FOR, THERE ARE STILL MORE WHITES ON THESE PROGRAMS, ON THESE FEDERAL ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS THAN PEOPLE OF COLOR.

SO WHAT DOES THAT MAKE YOU THINK ABOUT MAINSTREAMING, AS YOU WOULD PUT IT, I BELIEVE -- I WANT TO PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH -- BUT SORT OF MAINSTREAMING HOMOGENIZING THESE ISSUES IN THESE FEMINIST PUBLICATIONS?

>> Koa Beck: WHITE FEMINISM IS AN IDEOLOGY AND THE PRACTICE HAS A LOT OF CLASS INFUSED INTERESTS.SO IF YOU ARE A WORKING-CLASS WHITE WOMAN, YOU KNOW, IN THIS COUNTRY WHO WAS A SINGLE MOM OR TRYING, YOU KNOW, TO SUPPORT YOUR BABIES BY WORKING, SAY, AT LIKE A CALL CENTER, WHITE FEMINISM IS NOT NECESSARILY CONCERNED WITH YOU EITHER.

WHITE FEMINISM IS VERY ASPIRATIONAL IN ITS EXECUTION, AND IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN.

>> Bonnie: WHEN YOU SAY WHITE FEMINISM, DOES THAT MEAN ALL FEMINISM IN THE SENSE THAT THEY ARE NOT YET WOMEN OF COLOR GROUPS LARGE ENOUGH TO, I WOULD SAY NOW, BUT NOW IS NOT WHAT NOW WAS IN THE '60s.

IT'S A MUCH SMALLER, WEAKER, UNDERFUNDED ORGANIZATION.

IT'S -- YOU KNOW, IT'S STILL GOT A BIG NAME, BUT IT'S NOT THE POWER AND THE PRESENCE THAT WAS WHEN IT WAS FOUNDED.

>> Koa Beck: THAT'S NOT HOW I DEFINE WHITE WHITE FEMINISM IN THE BOOK.

IN MY RESEARCH DIDN'T NECESSARILY PLAN THAT OUT.

I DEFINE WHITE FEMINISM AS AN IDEOLOGY THAT IS VERY SPECIFIC IN ITS EXECUTION OF, SAY, LIKE, ACHIEVING GENDER EQUALITY THAT RELIES HEAVILY ON EXPLOITATION OF LABOR, VERY INDIVIDUALISTIC ACCUMULATION OF WEALTH.

IT INHERITS A LOT FROM WHITE SUPREMACY AS WELL IN THAT THESE ARE THE WAYS BY WHICH WOMEN ARE TOLD TO ACHIEVE GENDER EQUALITY AS OPPOSED TO MANY OTHER GENDER MOVEMENTS AND FEMINIST MOVEMENTS LED BY WORKING-CLASS WOMEN, DISABLED WOMEN, QUEER WOMEN, WOMEN OF COLOR THAT ARE MUCH MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THE COLLECTIVE RATHER THAN THE INDIVIDUAL ASCENSION AS BEING, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, FEMINIST.

AND EYE GEAR, IN MY BOOK THAT WHITE FEMINISM CAN REALLY BE FOLLOWED AND ADHERED TO BY ANYONE, REGARDLESS OF RACIAL BACKGROUND OR SEXUAL IDENTITY OR CLASS HOW IS KAMALA HARRIS ' PRESENCE IN THE WHITE HOUSE GOING TO AFFECT ALL OF THIS?

>> Koa Beck: A BIG TALKING POINT OF WHITE FEMINISM IS THIS ASSERTION THAT ONE PERSON, YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT'S A WOMAN OF COLOR, WHEN TRANS PERSON, YOU KNOW, ONE NATIVE PERSON WILL SOMEHOW CHANGE AN ENTIRE SYSTEM, AND THAT HAS BEEN A VERY SUCCESSFUL TALKING POINT WITHIN WHITE FEMINISM AND I THINK KEEPS A LOT OF DISENFRANCHISED PEOPLE IN VERY ORNAMENTAL ROLES.

SO I'M VERY EXCITED FOR HER VICE PRESIDENCY, BUT I ALSO GOING TO HER VICE PRESIDENCY WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT SHE WILL OPERATE IN A SYSTEM THAT CONSISTS OF CONSTELLATIONS OF POWER THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, WILDLY OUTSIDE OF HER OWN.

>> Bonnie: I KNOW THIS IS A RIDICULOUS QUESTION AT THIS POINT IN TIME, BUT I HAVE TO ASK YOU, IF SHE WERE TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT IN FOUR YEARS, DO YOU THINK SHE CAN OVERCOME ALL THE OBSTACLES OF DISCRIMINATION AND ANTI-COLOR BIAS THAT STILL EXISTS IN AMERICAN SOCIETY?

AND WOULD IT BE WORSE FOR HER, FOR EXAMPLE, THAN IT WAS FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA BECAUSE SHE IS A WOMAN?

>> Koa Beck: I THINK IF SHE WERE TO RUN AGAIN, THOSE DYNAMICS WOULD ABSOLUTELY EXIST IN HER PRESIDENCY.

BUT IN TERMS OF HOW THEY WOULD MANIFEST AND HOW THEY WOULD SHAPE IS UNCLEAR, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THAT, YOU KNOW, NOW THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH RECONSIDERATION OF SOCIAL MEDIA AND PUBLIC PLATFORMS AND THE WAY PEOPLE ENGAGE IN THESE CONVERSATIONS.

SO I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF DYNAMICS THERE THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

>> Bonnie: TELL ME, HOW DO YOU DEFINE WHITE FEMINISM VERSUS FEMINISM, AND HOW DO WE GET TO THE POINT WHERE THERE ISN'T A DIFFERENCE ANYMORE?

>> Koa Beck: I DEFINE WHITE FEMINISM IN THE BOOK AS AN IDEOLOGY TOWARDS ACHIEVING GENDER EQUALITY THAT DRAWS VERY HEAVILY FROM IDEAS OF INDIVIDUAL ASCENSION AND ACCUMULATION OF WEALTH AS WELL AS LABOR EXPLOITATION.

AND IN SOME WAYS, WHITE SUPREMACY AS WELL, AND THAT EXPORTS THESE IDEAS AND WOMEN TAKING ON THESE QUALITIES AS FEMINISM.

IN FOR A NUMBER OF OTHER GENDERED MOVEMENTS IN THIS COUNTRY, FEMINIST MOVEMENTS, THAT HAS NOT BEEN THE CASE.

I EXPLORE A LOT OF LABOR MOVEMENTS IN THIS COUNTRY AS WELL AS MOVEMENTS LED BY DISABLED PEOPLE, NATIVE PEOPLE, QUEER PEOPLE AND THEIR EXECUTIONS AND STRATEGIES ARE A LOT MORE INVESTED IN COLLECTVE WINDS RATHER THAN AN INDIVIDUAL WOMAN SUCCEEDING IN A CERTAIN CAPACITY SO THAT SHE CAN THEN EXPLOIT LOW-WAGE WORKERS TO EITHER MAINTAIN THAT POWERFUL POSITION OR, YOU KNOW, GET MORE WOMEN INTO POWERFUL POSITIONS.

AND WHITE FEMINISM GENERALLY HAS NOT BEEN A CRITIQUE OF THE SYSTEMS OF THIS COUNTRY AND HOW THOSE SYSTEMS IMPACT GENDER ON VERY SPECIFIC WAYS, WHETHER IT IS FOOD INSECURITY OR PAID PARENTAL LEAVE.

THIS HAVE NOT BEEN PRIORITIES OF THAT MOVEMENT.

IN TERMS OF GETTING AWAY FROM WHITE, SOME -- >> Bonnie: YOU SAID PAID PARENTAL LEAVE IS NOT PART OF THE PRESENTLY EXISTING WHITE FEMINIST MOVEMENT?

I THINK IT IS.

>> Koa Beck: FEDERAL PAID PARENTAL LEAVE HAS NOT, IN MY RESEARCH, BEEN ADVOCATED FOR WITHIN WHITE FEMINISM.

OUTSOURCING LABOR -- AND I GET INTO THIS A LOT IN THE BOOK IN TERMS OF A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, REPORTING THAT IS OUT THERE OR ADVICE TO FEMINIST IDENTIFIED WOMEN IN TERMS OF HOW THEY SHOULD THINK ABOUT THEIR DAY, BUT ALSO THINK ABOUT THEIR LABOR AND HOW THEY ADVANCE INDIVIDUALLY.

AND FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS NOW, AND SPECIFICALLY POST LINEN, THE MANTRA HAS BEEN TO SIMPLY, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, OUTSOURCE AND NOT NECESSARILY, YOU KNOW, ADVOCATE WITH OTHER WOMEN IN YOUR COMMUNITY TO, YOU KNOW, PUT PRESSURE ON CONGRESS FOR PAID FEDERAL PARENTAL LEAVE.

IT'S BEEN ABOUT HIRING LOW-WAGE WORKERS, GENERALLY WOMEN OF COLOR, TO TAKE CARE OF YOUR CHILDREN SO THAT YOU CAN THEN MOVE INTO THESE INFLUENTIAL SPACES.

AND THE DISCOURSE STOPS THERE.

I THINK THAT WHITE FEMINISM SPECIFICALLY HAS ALWAYS BEEN -- AND I GET INTO THIS, YOU KNOW, THROUGH EVEN THE FIRST WAVE OF AMERICAN MEDICINE, HAS ALWAYS BEEN CONCERNED WITH ASCENDING IN THE SPECIFIC SYSTEM RATHER THAN CRITIQUING THE SYSTEM.

>> Bonnie: NOW, YOUR LAST TWO CHAPTERS ARE VERY UPLIFTING, BECAUSE A LOT OF THE BOOK IS ALL ABOUT HOW PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT DESCRIPTIONS HAVE BEEN LEFT OUT OF THE MOVEMENT.

BUT IN THE END, YOU TALK ABOUT HOW WE CAN CLOSE THESE GAPS.

SHOULD IT ALL BEYOND WHITE WOMEN TO DRAW IN AND GIVE POWER TO WOMEN OF COLOR?

HOW DO YOU SEE IT WORKING THAT WE CAN GET CLOSER?

>> Koa Beck: I END THE BOOK WITH LAYING THE RESPONSIBILITY OF WHITE FEMINISM AT THE FEET OF WHITE FEMINISTS.

AND I THINK THAT WHEN, AT LEAST WHEN I THINK ABOUT WHITE FEMINISM, YOU KNOW, ON A ONE-TO-ONE LEVEL WHEN I HAVE MET OTHER WOMEN AND NON-BINARY PEOPLE EITHER PROFESSIONALLY OR, YOU KNOW, IN ORGANIZATIONAL SETTINGS AND ANALYZING WHITE FEMINISM STRUCTURALLY, WHAT IS ALWAYS MISSING IN THOSE MOMENTS IS THIS HISTORY THAT I GO INTO IN THE BOOK AND HOW THESE DYNAMICS HAPPEN NOW WHEN WE TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE WAGE GAP OR WOMEN'S MARCH.

IT'S ALL THIS CONTEXT THAT IS MISSING.AND SO, I TRIED TO ERECT THIS VERY CLEAN ARC BY WHICH IS THERE AND THE WAYS IN WHICH WHITE FEMINISM AS A PRACTICE HAS HARMED SO MANY OTHER WOMEN AND EXPLOITED THEM, FRANKLY, TO ASCEND TO THIS VERY SORT OF, YOU KNOW, FEMINIST BRANDED UTOPIA.

SO I THINK THAT RESPONSIBLY WHITE FEMINISM IS THE PROBLEM OF WHITE FEMINISTS.

AND A LOT OF OTHER WOMEN AND NINE BINARY PEOPLE WHO ARE PART OF OTHER MOVEMENTS HAVE BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL IN THEIR ENDEAVORS.

AND IN A LOT OF WAYS, THEY DON'T NECESSARILY NEED WHITE FEMINISTS TO COME AROUND, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, TO ACHIEVE THE THINGS THAT THEY HAVE 12.

>> Bonnie: YOUR SOLUTION IS FOR EVERYBODY TO BE INCLUDED IN THE SAME MOVEMENT, BUT DIFFERENT RACIAL GROUPS HAVE DIFFERENT CONCERNS.

FOR EXAMPLE, IMMIGRATION.

YOU ARE MUCH MORE LIKELY IF YOU OR YOUR PARENTS CAME FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY, YOU ARE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO WANT OPEN IMMIGRATION THAN SOMEONE WHO WAS BORN HERE OR WHOSE FAMILY HAS BEEN HERE FOR GENERATIONS AND GENERATIONS.

SO THE ISSUES REALLY DO DIFFER.

WOULD IT NOT MAKE MORE SENSE FOR GROUPS OF REPRESENTING DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS TO GROW AND BECOME STRONG AND INFLUENTIAL IN THEIR OWN RIGHT AND HAVE AMERICA LISTEN TO THEM RATHER -- OR SHARE SOME OF THE SPOTLIGHT WITH WHITE FEMINISM OR BECOME PART OF THE MOVEMENT?

WHICH WOULD BE BETTER?

>> Koa Beck: WELL, I THINK THAT A LOT OF THE MANDATES THAT YOUR ANECDOTALLY REFERENCING, LIKE, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, DON'T FORGET BLACK WOMEN, I THINK THAT IF YOU ARE OPERATING FROM A WHITE FEMINIST IDEOLOGY, THAT'S KIND OF THE AVENUE.

AND, SAY, LIKE BLACK WOMEN'S ISSUES OR ASIAN AMERICANS WOMEN'S ISSUES ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE ORNAMENTAL BECAUSE FROM A WHITE FEMINIST PRACTICE, THEY ARE NOT CENTRALIZED, NOR ARE THEY CONSIDERED.

SO WHAT I LAY OUT IN THE BOOK IS THAT IF YOU CHANGE YOUR IDEOLOGY IN YOUR APPROACH TO GENDER EQUALITY, THEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO OPERATE IN THESE MANDATES OF, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, FORGET BLACK WOMEN, BECAUSE YOUR FOUNDATIONAL UNDERSTANDING OF GENDER, HOW THEY EXPERIENCE GENDER IN THIS COUNTRY AND WHAT GENDER OPPRESSION LOOKS LIKE IS FOUNDATIONAL TO THE WAY THAT YOU ARE ENVISIONING FEMINIST PROGRESS.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, KOA BECK, AUTHOR OF THE BRAND-NEW BOOK, "WHITE FEMINISM".

READ IT, GET IT.

IT IS OUT THERE NOW.

AND THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION OF "TO THE CONTRARY".

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